Will you force teachers to teach something they don’t believe? The proposition, God exists, is either true or false and can be investigated. The thing is, fellas, you can’t prove a negative. It's allowed in publicly funded schools - if it's taught as something that some people believe. See Roger Williams, et al. People practice different religions, but they have the same moral ideas. I do not see a problem with public schools engaging in the pursuit of truth, do you? So nice of you to once again stray from the point in order to demonize. You had better be quiet about it or she’d paddle you. So you will continue to skip over the fact that the teaching of your Bronze Age gibberish in a public school would be un Constitutional? Marshall, if I was teaching again, would you want me teaching the kids about God? Think of the enlightenment that will be of benefit to the student body as those like yourself shred the evidence that exists regarding my radicalized death cult excuse for a religion. He was merely defending what the 1st Amendment was saying and that is crystal clear in everything you posted related to the issue. Most of the books were copied by monks and theology was a key subject of study. In his 1787 Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson stated: “ Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. This exclusion would likely make the student the target of bullying … [61] ” Here’s a bit more about how the founders felt about religious expression in public life, and since it’s on topic, here a really good piece about Jefferson’s creation of a university. It didn’t need to. I most certainly have no obligation to regard questions from you in particular as if you decide the direction of the discussion. I am looking to keep the discussion there, and have already responded to your diversions, such as your voluminous post about Jefferson, which also didn’t answer the question or demonstrate that you really care about Jefferson’s true positions. The most popular jobs in Canada today revolve around trades and manufacturing businesses. You could have said, “Yeah, like that, Dan.” and then foregone all the gnashing of teeth and objecting to particular teachers because of their belief system being different than yours. So, IF all you are talking about is having a world religion course to relatively objectively educate students about all religions, then I doubt that most people would care. They did not form this nation. He never ceased to denounce the “blasphemous absurdity of the five points of Calvin”, writing three years before his death to John Adams: “ His [Calvin’s] religion was demonism. Yet somehow, you think kids will be hypnotized to believe as the teacher does merely for daring to instruct the kids in the finer points of religion. Yes, I use my reason to interpret things the best I can and it is certainly MY opinion, not an objective standard. Science should be taught in school. I was not objecting to that notion (as I noted early on), but rather, the teaching of a particular version of religion. As such you couldn’t have enough impact for me to consider blaming you. No, we should not do that for the reasons stated, for reasons of religious liberty. If I wanted my child to learn it, I would send her to a private school or Sunday school. Thee is no example in the home or outside. Why did your god allow for it? 200 years ago, we were more homogenous and no one would object to one particular flavor of Christianity being taught in schools. 4) Great job skirting additional questions spurned by John’s initial post. “Who would choose what to teach, and how, about the Abrahamic belief systems?”. And despite the whiny arguments to the contrary, our concepts of right and wrong are based on Christian teaching. Well then it’s a damned good thing that doesn’t happen by the mere teaching of Christianity in public schools. But I don’t think the issue should be avoided in the fashion it is currently. I would praise God that I could be that last guy who hasn’t cast off the truth simply because it wasn’t popular. Who’s going to teach? Most Christian denominations share more in agreement than they do disagreement. His later private letters indicate he was skeptical of too much interference by Catholic clergy in matters of civil government. Nothing in that chapter suggests that because God allowed any given person to rise to a position of power that such a person cannot be unseated by whatever process is put in place to achieve that goal. Then the conversation will become interesting and informative and just might lead to an argument. It’s true. We explain what the next stage of the vaccine rollout means for you. The Buddhist math teacher? “We can’t let Dan and his type teach the class, so his type of Christians are not approved. Washpool Creek naturalisation project is set to see an old concrete drain... News However, none of that has any bearing teaching religion in schools as it does not establish a national, state, municipal or even neighborhood religion to which everyone must ascribe. One of my brothers, who is an atheist, has recently said the same thing to me. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. Because “at least has some connection to American history that no other religion does.”. This will help teach kids about acceptance and other cultures. These exist already. BUT, for the purposes of this discussion and the question posed by the title of the post, which claim is likely to be true and which false would be a great learning exercise for any school to pursue. Got it. There’s no shame in admitting that opinions are subjective when we’re talking about unprovable interpretations and opinions, John. The non-theists and agnostics I know are as moral or more so than many believers I know. Observing inter-denominational intolerance in the United States, he extended his skepticism to Protestant clergy. “The proposition, God exists, is either true or false and can be investigated. The Swedeborgians? In a letter to William Short in 1820, he expressed that his intent was to “place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no imposter himself”, but that he was not with Jesus “in all his doctrines”, Jefferson described many passages as “so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture”. “Would your jesus comment on my panties?”. Now here’s the truly sad part of your last comment: You think that if I was the last person on earth to feel as I do, and all else pitied and laughed at my ideas, that because of THAT I must repent and believe as YOU DO? Do you prefer to dismiss Jefferson because he was a radical politically, and that by your definition, he is in Hell? Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. Gee, marshalart, thank you for proving my point perfectly. Two very different issues. What “fight” did we lose a long time ago? Do you really WANT people to know how lacking you are? In the meantime, since you have still not provided any reason why the existence of God cannot be discussed, or even why religion shouldn’t be taught, it can be only fear that explains it. I guess you don’t seem to understand that this isn’t a point I’m making here. Apparently you must have been just talking out your ass expecting me to reverse my position because of it. Pathetic really, but whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Mine was that discussions in schools regarding the existence of a supreme being is merely a search for truth of which believers have no fear. I’m claiming that the Christian tradition, despite the denomination of any particular state or group, was THE faith tradition that had the greatest and most profound impact on the founding of this country. Conceding that, because no one is suggesting establishing anything more than a fearless search for truth, you have yet to provide any reason why religion should not be taught about in public schools. Yeah, I believe I know the truth, sure. Hmmmmmmm….. That’s the freakin’ point, and now you continue to lie about it after I explained it to you. We shouldn’t do this because no one would agree on WHO should teach the class or WHAT should be taught in the class. @marshalart, It’s obvious that many believers would object to their child being too critical of their own religion because of something they heard in school. What are the evidences and arguments that point to your assertion tjat the proposition is false? What a sad commentary on your elitist position. We send our children to school to learn their ABCs not religion...that is what Sunday school and Church is for..If you want your child to have these sort of classes maybe you should consider sending them to a private religious school. You would have to show how any tenet of ANY non-Christian faith played any role in the founding. Why? I mean if your’e the majority, how exactly is it that now you are fighting to have your insanity taught at home, church, and the government institution of public education? As fully explained, the statement regarding Scripture and God being in question only exists by virtue of people like you insisting that what Scripture clearly states, in terms no honest person can misinterpret, is not so. it made me cringe. Wouldn’t your god be taking care of this problem on his own? In a letter to Samuel Miller dated January 23, 1808 Jefferson stated: “ But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. However, to teach islam or buddhism or any non-Christian religion makes no sense in a country founded by Christians with founding principles having flowed from Christianity (not necessarily all of them atheists, so watch those panties!). In 1954, Congress revised the Pledge of Allegiance to refer to the nation as “under God,” a phrase that has since been recited by generations of schoolchildren. No. And what is your measure for a faith tradition having some connection to American history? Try studying the Bible for the details of just how this works. They sought only those professors qualified to teach. She has worked extensively in regional Queensland news since 2007 and has tackled big issues including the extensive abuse in the aged care industry. Because if all it takes to be “objective” when it comes to interpreting the Bible is to rely upon original language textual clues, and we’re both doing that, then we’re both being objective. And just like every other subject taught in every school in the nation, some teachers suck, some are great, some schools suck, some are great, some curricula suck, some are great. Teachers would, hopefully, would be selected on merit and their ability to teach religion well, much as we now, hopefully, select teachers of other subjects. One way is demonstrating that the thing posited is impossible to exist. The issue is settled. News Ganesh does exist. … Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. Thank you for the kind wishes. Oh really? ” You were the one who said you objected to particular flavors of Christianity or other faith systems not being allowed to teach the class.”. There’s no need to be scared. Jefferson intensely opposed Calvinism. It is hard to teach history without teaching about various religions and the effect they have on history. Not the topic of this discussion. No one here, for example, suggests that there should be religious litmus tests for elected anyone. Just like you. You’re an idiot. Yet still, there is no possible threat of establishment of religion even if every public school in the country taught only Christianity and from the perspective of one denomination. “Or STD’S! There is no place for this topic in a normal math class, nor in an English class, nor in science, biology, anatomy, reading, etc. During the 1800 presidential campaign, the New England Palladium wrote, “Should the infidel Jefferson be elected to the Presidency, the seal of death is that moment set on our holy religion, our churches will be prostrated, and some infamous ‘prostitute’, under the title of goddess of reason, will preside in the sanctuaries now devoted to the worship of the most High.”[30] Federalists attacked Jefferson as a “howling atheist” and infidel, claiming that his attraction to the religious and political extremism of the French Revolution disqualified him from public office. You guys can’t agree on anything outside your own narrow interpretation of the good book. What a sad commentary on your elitist position. “Are you seriously going to blame your pathetic lot in life on me?”. So, it appears that YOU recognize the problem of a loss of religious liberty when it’s your loss being discussed. it was intended that states could do whatever they wanted, and that the federal government would not establish official religions. Yet most, if not all, found a devotion to God in private, manifested in how one lives publicly was also seen as logical back then. Doug, thats why I dont think I’d want schools delving into each religion either. No, really. But you haven’t come close to proving bigotry on my part. Wow Nash. But it didn’t carry the day for most on this list of founders The idea that no one Christian religion should rule the nation was not illogical to the founders in general than it is to any Christian who visits this blog. Not at all. The suggestion raises many problematic (for you) questions that remain unanswered.”. If christianity was so important to the fabric of these guys, why did they go out of their way to make sure that it’s influence was mitigated? Just to help you out, I’d suggest that if you ask me a question, you should regard my answer in relation to the actual manner in which the question was asked, and not alter it later as if you’ve discovered some inconsistency. The Bulls have a six game winning streak going right now. Don’t let your fear of the actual answers force your head into the sand. But you don’t appear to mind taking away others’ religious liberties – at least insofar as having a state-sanctioned religious class – as long as you keep yours. I’ll find out unequivocally in time. I have no way of knowing with any certainty at this point. A government program set up to save millions of dollars’ worth of produce from going to waste has attracted shockingly few workers. For example, he invoked the notion of divine justice in 1782 in his opposition to slavery,[33] and invoked divine Providence in his second inaugural address.[34]. It does nothing for the general position on whether or not any god exists. For it to appeal to you, the class would have to inject the same socialistic, morally bankrupt nonsense you do. Should religion be taught in public schools? You can prove a negative. Things are much clearer now. “ If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise as it had happened in a fair or market[39] ” You ask easy questions, John. But like so much, you merely assert your objection and ignore the evidence I provided. [59] ” I hope this clears up at least THIS incredible misconception of yours. It pays to be informed of what’s out there. Dan is not alone.You are not alone. That’s so sad. I guess you don’t seem to understand that your “truth” is not as widely accepted as you may think. On what basis? Jefferson sought what he called a “wall of separation between Church and State”, which he believed was a principle expressed by the First Amendment. There’s just no way to teach Christianity in a non-biased manner without it being understood the way conservative Christians understand it. The lack of belief in God gives license to self indulgence. 1) You have no truth? Isn’t it wonderful that we agree? Yet, it, like so many major universities, have courses on the subject of world religions. Since you are a Christian and you happen to believe in God, you necessarily and unavoidably and inevitably believe in Allah. ” are you afraid of an eternity in hell for your behavior?”, “Aren’t you promised a paradise in heaven for just accepting Christ?”. It is about whether or not there is value or harm in teaching about the existence of God in public schools. Are teachers advising students on the “right” answer? I agree. At least you finally asked a clarifying question, regardless of how inane. The thing is, from a practical point of view, I have to doubt that conservative Christians would want to see this enacted and enforced in our schools. YOU are pathetic. Teaching religion in schools helps students understand the differences among the principles of each and every religion. And once again, Sparky, I didn’t advocate anything so specific at all. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained. “You yourself even admit that determining the “God exists” question is beyond our ability to answer.”. These separation laws are in effect in the country in order to further exemplify the first amendment. Im not saying that necause u used to be something…. It would help the kids to settle down and focus, making for a better day all around. They – and religious liberty types, like the traditional baptists and anabaptists – oppose teachers teaching “God” for reasons of religious liberty, not for reasons of hedonism. They don't get a mark for it, they don't have to achieve a level of understanding they just enjoy the stories and with all that is bad in the world these days I for one am happy that my children have a class (and teacher) that they have come to respect, enjoy and learn in. The only question would be, “What is the underlying purpose behind the content?” If, for example, … Does the faith traditions of the many settlers from across the globe not count as a connection? How is it with the wealth of Jeffersons writings, you have no opinion on where his soul is? I submit that, even for those who were deists and atheists, the Christian faith tradition had profound impact on the way they thought. The radically liberal new age history teacher? Deriving from this statement, Jefferson believed that the Government’s relationship with the Church should be indifferent, religion being neither persecuted nor given any special status. In 1779 Jefferson proposed “The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom”, which was adopted in 1786. The Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist churches did not receive tax support. Your comment is more ludicrous than normal, even by the standards you’ve set for commentary. Im not even necessarily argying that it should take place. Do you ever, like, read history, or just isolate those parts that can be used to appear to support your preferred beliefs? Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order: or if a sect arises, whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play, and reasons and laughs it out of doors, without suffering the state to be troubled with it. Look again at my link on Jefferson’s establishment of the University of Virginia. fundamentally speaking, whats different from our country’s founding where specifically Christianity was taught in schools without questioning? No, Dan. He’s not totally dim. Allah is the God of the Universe. You’re fear-mongering just as Nash was doing and for the same reason. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. 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